Welcomed but when?

Clyde Gateway has a very good track record of delivery. Potentially, great news.

I don't comment on the architecture but the concept of new, local, small-scale, high-quality manufacturing is a great idea.

Time to end the period of offshoring everything with rampant corporate globalisation and inhuman totalitarianism.

Daydreaming ..... nothing more

The best of intentions granted but it is all so middle class / all so artisanal / all so academic / all so lab based.

Reeks of Peter Pan engineering -- all subsidy focused / grant funded dabbling that never gets commercial.

Hopefully proved wrong but we are now awash with innovation centres with no real world volume manufacturing coming out of it.

What we need is a Scottish Centre of ferry design and operational excellence -- it is either that or we spend £3.9bill over the next decade keeping Calmac afloat.

If only we had spent pennies 10 years ago we would not be spending billions now.

The imagery is being sold as a vibrant nieghbourhood, but in reality it is little more than a science/office park. A daytime population (perhaps) and then nowt after 6pm.The consistent gross density required for a neighbourhood node on Glasgow Street just isn't there and that woeful housing following the shape of Shawfield Stadium won't be enough.I seem to recall reading somewhere that the residual low-level ground contaminents made it unsuitable for dwellings (still) and hence this strange masterplan (no resi in the previous one either).
The imagery is trying hard to be Shoreditchy but one gets the distinct feeling that in 10 years it will still be Dalmarnocky.
PS, I willing to wager my Sketchup Licence that that Shawfield stadium housing will never materialise in that form. Has it got consent?

*neighbourhood

Agree with Lovely, high-tech manufacturing is our future, and it's good to see Clyde Gateway taking the initiative. Big corporations always begin as small start-ups.

To cheer FatBOT up, there absolutely are proper jobs in play (not just "middle class welfare" or "academic artisans") – travel a few miles along the M8 and ZeroAvia are about to build a new aircraft engine factory, not far from Rolls-Royce Aero's newish jet engine factory. Proper high-tech engineering, employing hundreds of people.

Re. the ferries, a Scottish Centre of ferry design and operational excellence might be useful, but even better would be a steady stream of orders over the next decade which allow a shipyard to invest in modern machinery, and employ a steady stream of apprentices.

Unfortunately, you've proved Fat Bot immediately correct:

ZeroAvia are a perfect example of heavy public finding in an industry that should easily be able to stand on its own two feet.

Am not against small high tech manufacturing but we're going to need to focus much more on real world stuff- jobs, needs, commerce, humanity, community and natural materials and processes if we want to have a nice planet to live on.

Otherwise we're going to end up in an ever increasing totalitarian, corporate, dystopia fuelled by massive flows of planet-killing inflated debt money.

#8 -- excuse monger mode turned up to 11 plus placing too much emphasis on a future based on an over reliance in buying in jobs from various subsidy mills with good PR.

Plus these are two different things -- innovation vs industrialisation -- we need both but it is better if we industrialise our own innovations rather than winning an auction to do it for someone else.

Your comments on the Scottish ferry building programme show your ignorance and optimism in equal measure.

We have a ferry build programme just a case that they will be coming from Turkey and Poland after Political Scotland -- aka the Nats and their useless civil service / quango pals -- devastated what ferry building capability we had.

Ego tripping with the LNG vibe that we still haven't managed to deliver after 13 years of planning / trying.

Even after all the failures in build the Scottish shipyard was forced to deliver at huge expense a LNG capability that will never be realistically used while the Turkish shipyards were excused this onerous task and will deliver a simpler diesel only based design.

I hope we manage to innovate in the Clyde Gateway -- just a case that it all looks too perfect / too prescriptive / too controlled / too academic / too managed to be productive in the real world.

#9 - I can't agree with that: ZeroAvia are a start-up company reliant on venture capital, they're absolutely not able to stand on their own feet. They're still at the R&D stage and burning through cash rather than making profits. That's completely different to established gas turbine manufacturers like Rolls-Royce, Safran, MTU, GE and Pratt & Whitney.

Truth is, if we want to attract companies developing new, greener technologies, we need to incentivise them to come here – or to stay here, in the case of Scottish start-ups.

#10 - You'll not be surprised that I reject that, too. My point stands, if the state-owned ferry company can provide the state-owned shipyard with a steady stream of orders, that will work better long term in terms of production planning and investment than offering it an occasional crumb from the table.

The new orders went abroad because Ferguson Marine mucked up the Arran ferries contract, so somebody needs to fix the shipyard's management processes before it's given the chance to tender for future ships. Evidently I'm not as defeatist as you are, I'm sure that we can fix that problem and build more merchant ships in Port Glasgow.

#11 -- delusional immature childish nonsense.

Buying work at great expense from outside -- what does that say about business basics in Nat controlled Scotland after 18 years of failure?

Little confidence in our own abilities / the fear of failure is so strong that we would prefer not to try in the first place than have the possibility of failure become part of our life.

Brewing / distilling is our level now.
Manufacturing is demonstrably a bit beyond us.
No wonder a council pension is the ambition of so many.

So now we have to buy in ideas from abroad and hope for the best -- not a good place for an economy to be.

Ferry situation -- the whole slow motion trainwreck is playing out in full view before our eyes and you think wishful thinking will sort it all out.

Not a chance -- again childish immature self delusion springs to mind.

Nats are not Nats any more anyway Fat Bot.

They are just corrupted little colonial caretakers now and seemingly doing a great job of keeping everyone stuck in fear, disorganisation and inaction as per their remit and as per your otherwise astute analysis.

Anyway, my intention was to foster a broader discussion, not to delve into too deep a discussion on specific examples.

However, ZeroAvia perfectly illustrates the problem and the point:

Public subsidies are being used to perpetuate wasteful and needless consumption and resource depletion.

We're creating resource intensive machines that generate electricity for other machines to try to make fake fossil fuels so that other machines can burn them instead of jet fuel all so we can pretend we are not eating up all the planet's resources by robbing Peter to pay Paul to get a couple of days brainless sight seeing in some sad city full of goggling over-tourism.

All to grab a bit longer on the debt based money and consumption led parabola that can only collapse without increased consumption and thus the same unfixable conundrum we keep seeing again and again....

Until you look at intelligently replacing these systems you are just rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic.

Aviation vs Net Zero ...

Plant loads of trees / re-use cooking oil / plant oil seed crops / use as little hydrocarbons as possible / cheaper parking for BEVs / better public transport access.

Electricity / Hydrogen / E fuels -- will be niche for the next 50 years.

Goodness, I leave the laptop for a few days and the comments have degenerated into illiterate bile…

#12 - I'm sure you already know that Scotland has used government grants to attract inward investment for the past 90 years, and more. Look up the Special Areas Acts of Parliament that resulted in the creation of Hillington Industrial Estate in the mid-1930's, and led to money being invested by the UK Government/ Scottish Office to bring companies and jobs here. Key thing to note - EVERY country uses grants to encourage job creation and infrastructure building, it's not a sign of Scottish weakness.

#13 - That's utterly ridiculous. By definition, the SNP are the antithesis of "colonial caretakers". They're the only political party fighting to ensure Scotland gets a fair shout, whether through increased devolution or eventual independence.

#14 - Let's see whether the debt-based consumer economy, as you put it, collapses. If it does, I hate to think what would replace it. The Greens' "degrowth" strategy, perhaps, where we have a shrinking economy and less and less money to spend on bourgeois fripperies like universal healthcare and decent education?

Just waiting for Godwin’s Law to kick in next.

#16 -- so we have been buying jobs for 90 years?
Well that worked well didn't it?

If the last 90 years has been an industrial success then I would hate to see what failure looks like.

We were global leaders in heavy engineering / shipbuilding / locomotive manufacture and we lost it all -- 99% of it at least.

But no matter if we can win an auction for a screwdriver plant and fund a vapourware start up who are good at press releases.

90 years a failure -- it would suggest that we need to try something different.

Marry Finland would be a good place to start.
Or at least copy her.

Went away to make a cup of tea only to find my 'illiterate bile' had been woefully misinterpreted so am back here now to share some useful illumination for you:

SNP were corrupted and lost the plot as per a lot of the current zeitgeist of simply saying one thing and actually doing another. They are now the Maharajas of Scotland. Keeping us in check for their colonial masters in London with bells whistles and broken promises rather than doing what it says on their tin. You had one job to do etc etc etc....

The debt based money system and consequent consumerist parabolic expansion has built in collapse. It's not a question. There are various things that could happen and 'de-growth' is one of the less bad ones. I don't have a dog in the game (did we not have this discussion before?). So seemingly you've not noticed the subtle corporate totalitarian take over of everything happening in front of your very eyes and you think your public services are all safe and well. I genuinely envy your mindset but as the saying goes 'once you've seen it you can't un-see it'.

When Godwin's law gets mentioned it means that either a participant has met it or that the debater concerned run out of ideas in the debate.....

Need another cup of tea now or perhaps something stronger!

My goodness, we’re still going!

#17 - You can call it buying jobs if you like, but Regional Selective Assistance, Enterprise Zones, the Highlands & Islands Development Board, the Scottish Development Agency and so on helped to bring work and therefore wealth and tax income to Scotland. Spend £1 of public money, get several £ of revenue in return.

Yes, we were global engineers in heavy engineering once – but the UK Government nationalised our steel industry then forced Colvilles to build Ravenscraig plus a strip mill at Gartcosh, to make steel coil for the failed Hillman Imp experiment at Linwood. Monty Finnieston realised we needed to build a new integrated iron & steelworks called Oceanspan to make heavy plate for shipbuilding and heavy engineering, but they didn’t listen to him.

Yes, we were global leaders in shipbuilding once – but apart from Yarrows and Scott Lithgow, we didn’t modernise our shipyards. By the 1960’s they were still using machine tools from before the Great War. The Fairfield Experiment failed, and if it hadn’t been for Jimmy Reid, there would be no shipbuilding left at all in Scotland. Strange thing is that Spanish, Polish, Finnish and Italian shipyards did invest – and they’re successful.

Yes, we were global leaders in steam locomotives, but North British Locomotive Co. was too slow adopting diesel power, they didn’t invest, then too late they experimented with untried diesel-hydraulic machinery. Loco manufacturers down south were happy to see NBL fail, nobody stepped in to help.

Spot the common theme – failure to invest.

We could do a lot worse than look to Finland, for shipbuilding and electronics – and architecture. Remember Alvar & Aino Aalto?

#18 – I’m sorry if you feel you’ve been misinterpreted, but we’re looking through opposite ends of the telescope.

Prior to devolution, I’d agree that the Scottish Executive could possibly have been described as Maharajas, but the Scottish Government under the SNP is fighting for independence. Even if you don’t agree with the SNP, or with independence, you can surely see that independence is the categorical opposite of colonialism? Thus your point doesn’t make sense.

The capitalist system was conceived by Adam Smith about 300 years ago. Hasn’t collapsed so far, so your point is questionable. The “corporate totalitarian takeover” you mention is a result of the UK government under Thatcher and her monetarists, followed by New Labour under Tony Blair, selling off pubic land and assets to their private equity mates at favourable rates. Hence PFI schools, hospitals and so forth.

If you remember the criminal trails connected with the Skye Bridge Tolls, you’ll recall the procurator fiscal stating that “PFI is a fraud against the public”. The key point is that PFI was created and enabled by Tory and Labour governments at Westminster – that isn’t *capitalism* at work, it’s cronyism and kleptocracy. Similarly, the NHS has been deliberately run down, so that private healthcare firms are needed to deliver public healthcare.

IMHO, our public services are snookered, thanks to 14 years of Tory government preceded by 13 years of New Labour. The only way to fix them is investment and economic growth – de-growth would deliver the exact opposite. You can’t spend money you don’t have.

Enjoy your tea. :-)

Thank you for the impromptu and unnecessary history lesson!

The collapse relates to the debt-based money system, not an economic system. We had this discussion already but given your slight openness to listen, I'll continue.

I don't advocate for or against capitalism, and that's not our current discussion. We anyway operate at the moment under a bizarre mix of communist banks and quasi-government agencies, contrasted with small pockets of real-world local economic activity, all over shrouded by corporate globalist greed.

Thus the palpable drop in quality of buildings and infrastructure plus lower quality of life we see in the urban design scene.

Your current SNP analysis is precisely upside down; you're looking through the wrong end of the telescope as you say it.

After the referendum they mostly chose to become fearful or corrupt colonial care takers on a gravy train of London money spiced with virtuous baubles of culture war. All while they wait around for the 'permission' to go independent. This is not how it is done.

Stockholm syndrome now on both sides of that debate anyway and appreciate its not easy for you to realise your team are on the drop like this.

#19 -- I see you bought a book on economic geography to help you with your highers then.

Excuse-mongery turned up to 11 -- blame anyone you can who is far away.

Just not a good book.
Or was it all just written on a tea towel.
Tea towel nationalism is the only growth industry we have.

Alphabet soup of development gum bumpers -- full of good intentions but poor delivery.

We have spent billions on this but there are no billions out there in useful output.

Just boarded up factories and wastelands of rubble -- Silicon Glen was great while it lasted but we forgot about the software and the systems dimensions.

Spanner mentality does IT -- not a good look.

Oceanspan -- just Scottish arrogance / ignorance / exceptionalism put on show for the world to shake its head and ignore.

It was golf club / bowling club levels of economic strategy based on a past that was already failing to deliver and a new steel plant would only have been a cathedral in a rapidly developing desert.

Snider chat about Linwood -- George Ezra vibe to it all as in we had the future and we threw it all away.

Offered the chance to export Avengers to the US and we didn't have the gumption / imagination / engineering depth / energy to make a go of it.

Engineering was terrible / build quality shocking -- another lost opportunity.

Big contrast with Mitsubishi took up the offer and wrung the cloth dry -- Japan 2 Scotland 0.

Scott Lithgow -- they might have invested in new plant but not in new blood. Drilling rig design in the middle of the North Sea Oil boom was beyond them -- South Korea 1 Scotland 0.

NBL didn't make the jump to diesel and electric trains -- stuck in their ways as the built their way through their post war order book.

Reduced to mooching round Germany looking for anyone with a diesel engine to sell -- ended up with the by now traditional under engineered disaster.

John Street Poly and Bearsden Tech were big on steam tables but very undercooked on ICE -- another part of Scotland living in the past.

History -- needs work.
Scotland industrialised as part of the UK.
Before that the only industrial use we had for our coal was boiling seawater for salt.

Then we couldn't modernise as tech changed after we had grown fat and happy / arrogant on our initial success.

Future -- get rid of the excuse mentality / stop blaming others for our own misfortunes / go local before you buy jobs globally.

And burn the tea towel.

#20 -- OMG / and there's more ...

Devolution -- 25 wasted years.
Great for Auld Reekie middle class but terrible for the rest of us.
Westminster of the North in double quick time.
Helped by 18 years of Nat laziness / stupidity / ignorance.

Devolution run by separatists -- never going to work was it? Continual failure is their lever towards independence.

Andy Burnham in Manchester -- he has down twice as much with half the levers in half the time.

And all without the Barnett formula so money isn't the only solution -- energy / drive / ambition help too.

Nat arrogance turned up to 11 -- Adam Smith did not invent or conceive capitalism.
He codified and tried to rationalise some of business life that he saw around him. He was good but he is not the tea towel titan that you would want us to believe.

PFI -- Treasury inspired work-a-round for the public spending rules being developed for the Euro. We were skint after the economic failure of Thatcher and they were getting desperate.

PFI then found an audience elsewhere because public resources were not being maintained by the public sector and when they did get involved their output was poor and open to corruption.

Starving man vs 3 course lunch -- not pretty / very smelly indeed.

Tony Blair / Gordon Brown -- saved the NHS / rebuilt the civic realm / employed nurses and teachers by the dozen / listened to the Daily Mail a bit too much.

Skye Bridge -- little local difficulty cooked up by second rate civil servants in Auld Reekie. They moved on and now run the ferries. Failure is their middle name.

Scotland's future will be based on what we can deliver for ourselves -- hunting high and low for scapegoats / easy targets is what has gotten us into this mess.

The shame of the drug addicts and the prisoner deaths haunts a nation -- we did it by our own actions / inactions not Westminster or Brussels.