18 months -- they are having a laugh.
How many workers will be on site?

Plenty -- but 14 clipboards and one shovel

If the avenues work is anything to go by, this could be a scary outcome. I have never seen finishes as badly as that project!

It's hardly huge and certainly not historic. 18 months to do that? Rome was actually built quicker and you can bet council-tax payers will get ripped off.

Transport 1400 vibe with the road space capture.
All the usual suspects making an erse of it.
Will we ever learn?

I wonder why the 18 month contract seems unreasonable to the commenters above when the city has waited 12 years to get this underway; the delay largely resting with the previous administration's failure agree a winner in the competition it ran (it did eventually) , the shambolic process ,the lack of leadership and the failure to consult properly.

While the current administration is certainly not a paradigm of perfect governance, this alongside the equal pay dispute (which could have bankrupted the city) can be seen as clearing up 2 of the major catastrophes left behind by the previous incumbents.

On that basis, I'm willing to give it 18 months.

PS To the commenter asserting that it is not huge or historic, I'd like them to expand. This is the largest single public realm works the city has undertaken in living memory. You could make a case for the pedestrianisation of Sauchiehall and Buchanan Streets in the 70's, but that is apples and pears. And in terms of history, well you'd have to be living in cave not to understand the historic significance of redeveloping the City's main civic space which has had a continuum since the late 18thC.

PPS Rome was not built quicker :)

Any chance of a John MacLean statue there? Or how about a woman? ?

This is pathetic on many levels, and apologies again for not celebrating failure. Am sure we can do better than this if we put our minds to it.

OMG -- the equal pay angle surfaces again.
Barrel scraping -- if only it was an Olympic sport.

Always wondered why the arrangements in the two biggest cities were seen as discriminatory while everybody else seemed to muddle through.

And then you have the basics that too many people cannot engage with -- the bins are a much harder job than that of a home help / carer / school dinner operative.

Plus there is no gender bar on working the bins.

You lot are perennially miserable. It's a well considered upgrade to a very large urban square, 18 months sounds about right.

The designs put forward 12 years ago were very tacky by comparison (apart from the winner).

George Square -- the big issue was ignored.

We should move the Cenotaph up to the Cathedral Square area.

Facing on the discount pub is not very solemn or respectful.

A great new facility for the local rat infestation , money well spent in my opinion...well done Susan Aitken & Co ...

Sevco need 2 celebrate else were
This was meant to start back n Dec. Why the delay. Glasgow council are a joke

We have a winner!
# 10 is easly the most asinine and risible comment I've ever read in UR. Congrats :)

Dear God, some of the comments here are just juvenile nonsense. This just needs to get built and built well. No wonder the industry rarely listens to Architects anymore, its either wonderful or a complete disaster. For those whose glass is half empty, can I suggest that you have a day off and give us all some peace.

...In comparison to the submissions from 12 years ago, what an improvement. A lot of squawking on here but no solutions, what would you do better? 18 months will fly by.

Personally, I'd like to see more facilities for coffee shops, bars, restaurants etc. inside the square to activate it a little bit more but other than that, it's a vast improvement on its current state.

Cenotaph at George Square vs Cathedral ,,,
Comments have been made all across this 20 year debacle. Not news to most but obviously to those that want to make a noise.

The 18 month build plan is the issue -- has all the hallmarks of someone wanting total control for an easy life with no thought to the users / city population.
So design is not the issue -- the process is the issue.
Lazy / unimaginative / control freak contractors are the issue.
Road capture is the issue -- any excuse will do.
Hobby horsing is the issue -- all that is missing is AI and gender balance.

Though give it time.

Here's a thought, if i am permitted to make one by the comments polis we have here, if you look at the illustration, one thing should quickly become apparent - that's right, there's not a single smartphone in sight. Is there something we should be told? In fact, a young girl looks as if she's even reading a comic! I think we're being brainwashed here into believing in some mythical nostalgic past...

Come along now, everyone, form an orderly queue to lend your support to this belated, meek and likely shambolic endeavour, on the tenuous grounds that it is preferable to absolute inaction – a proposition that remains decidedly debatable.

One suspects a fair few on this forum could produce a superior outcome with a modicum of opportunity.

Take that as a compliment and stop praising poor design and even poorer management of a situation.

18 months for laying slabs, planting some trees and reinstating the much missed grass areas is indeed a long time - genuinely a 6-month job with adequate manpower.

I would guess that time has been built in for relocating existing services, dealing with public utilities, and plenty of wiggle room so they can say it was delivered 'on time'.

Dear Fat Bloke on Tour,

I’m going to out myself here as the person who wrote the Conservation Management Plan for George Square which, obviously, involved a bit of research. So I’m intrigued by your suggestion that the Cenotaph being moved up to Cathedral Square has been much commented on over the last two decades. Can you please point me in the direction of this discussion?

From what I am aware, Sir John James Burnet’s Cenotaph was specifically designed for the east side of George Square, a site which was selected because that was where successive Lords-Lieutenant took the salute of the Glaswegian men leaving for the front so was thought of as hallowed ground.

There wasn’t unanimous agreement on this. The Parks Committee, being mindful that selecting that particular site would involve a reshuffle of the monuments (Gladstone, Prince Albert and Queen Victoria had to be moved), disapproved so offered two alternatives sites within the square. The disagreement was smoothed over though.

To the best of my knowledge over the last two decades any politician proposing changes to George Square has been at pains to stress that the Cenotaph is sacrosanct and will not be touched.

To hear that there was this alternative discussion suggesting the Cenotaph move up to Cathedral Square is fascinating. Are you sure you are not conflating this with the discussion in the 1959 and 1960 which resulted in the Monument to David Livingstone being relocated from George Square to Cathedral Square?

Yours faithfully

Niall Murphy

Wow, this sums up how woeful Glasgow City Council are. This is due to finish in the autumn meaning that when the Commonwealth Games are on next year, the main square in the city will have boarded up and out of bounds - incredible!

NM -- Cenotaph moving is a staple of most UR articles regarding the upgrading of George Square over the years and decades.

And UR articles on George Square -- there have been many and then some.

Back in the day there was pushback against a seasonal Ferris Wheel in George Square because it would overshadow the Cenotaph.

Cue then some chat on what was appropriate for the main civic space in the city -- use / enjoyment of the space by the masses or a more limited popular engagement based on the solemnity required to remember our war dead.

The issue you highlight morphs into the limited political discussion available to elected representatives within the social barriers generated by the Forgers Gazette and old Monkey Glands tabloids.

Plus politicians now in Glesga always follow and never lead -- hobby horsers bump their gums and provide the noise which in a political policy desert takes over.

So to me the Cenotaph deserves better -- a more solemn and thoughtful location where personal remembrance is not overwhelmed by fried onions and Shows generated shrieking for 6 weeks every year.

Plus we desperately need a flagpole for the Red flag that better represents the city's individuality and personality than a war memorial that overwhelms with its Kelvinside upper privately educated / middle class severity and could be placed in most major Empire cities without any comment.

#21 -- fair point.

The contractor will be using that little angle to fish for more money.

18 month build time -- absolutely mental / there had to be a reason behind it.

#21
Folk making this kind of complaint would have complained if the square's redevelopment was held up for another year and a half - most likely with increasing cost , which, no doubt, they'd have complained about too.

Amusing to see FBOT twist himself into pretzels in the face of expert info and knowledge - from the author of the George Square Conservation Management Plan - to justify the belief in an argument about shifting the Cenotaph which I think only exists only in his ain heid. :) If he can post links to any in-depth discussions over numerous articles 'over the years and decades' in UR, I shall retract my critique.

Amusing...

PS I look forward to the detailed project management timeline / program that he proposes. Not sure if contractors have been appointed yet but if I were FBOT, I'd get my hat in the ring sharpish. You might have missed the tender cut-off though... shame...They might make an exception for a fast-track contract that you are proposing in lieu of the accepted tenders. I know that council officers read UR and in particular, the comments -especially news items related to GS - so you might be in with a chance. :0 :) :0

This may be a first for me but I agree with fbot regards the cenotaph, the installation of which in front of the City Chambers disturbed the finely honed balance of the square's layout. I've been saying it publicly for 20 odd years, indeed Niall you and I have discussed if at length. Just another of those little details that conveniently slip your mind from time to time.

I also agree with FBOT that the cenotaph as positioned isn't ideal. It removes the sight-line to the splendid frontage of the City Chambers from elsewhere in the square.

Interesting to read from NM about the original reasons for site selection, and if it was/is thought of as hallowed ground as described, then seems appropriate to leave where it is.

I think we could all agree that what will be complete in (hopefully!) 18 months will be a big improvement on what was there previously.

Clarification on a couple of points above.

Cenotaph moving stuff vs UR -- From memory this was in the comments not in the articles themselves.

Ferris Wheel stooshie -- interesting dynamic in play at the time.

Other UK cities seemed to get one for their attempt at a Christmas Market.

I think George Square has had one in the recent past -- my comments related to one episode when the Cenotaph was wheeled out as a reason that one could not be set up in George Square.

The incident taught me a lot about ET headlines / PR management / rent-a-quote moon howling / the need to tick a few bases to do anything in Glesga.

It would appear that George Square Shows PLC are quick learners if indeed a Ferris Wheel has now been part of their offer.

All in all -- not a great advert for the city.
Pitchfork rental is big business in Glesga.

You just need to involve the right people.
How you involve them -- I can only wonder.

Amazing courage or rather chutzpah from the heritage chief coming out openly in the forum in the city with one of the worst heritage records on the planet.

Also, given that you can get a death threat for camping too near the Cenotaph probably best to just to move it away to somewhere 'safer'.

This especially given that the importance of genuine 'remembrance' seems to have now been supplanted by using it to jingoistically support a new militarism while 'forgetting' about the past and the easily avoidable, totally murderous and utterly idiotic wars that we've done....

22. "Plus we desperately need a flagpole for the Red flag that better represents the city's individuality and personality than a war memorial that overwhelms with its Kelvinside upper privately educated / middle class severity"

Speaking as one of the great unwashed, non-privately educated working classes of Glasgow, this is self-mythologising, kailyard p*sh.

@#27
Ah... so just the 'comments' and not as you quote @#22:

'Cenotaph moving is a staple of most UR articles regarding the upgrading of George Square over the years and decades.'

I'm sure if you find the articles, the comments will still be there but we'll be generous and accept this as hyperpole rather than outright bullsh*t. Though I did find an article in which you bemoan the lack of specialists in the renovation of statuary within the ranks of the council. :)

And what about your project program proposal, fast-tracking the contract duration from 18 months down to - well...a year? Six months? A month? Please advise ASAP. Oh and a suggestion of a contractor that isn't 'lazy / unimaginative' or a 'control freak' would be helpful.

We're waiting with baited breath as I'm I'm sure the officers at the council are ... The officers charged with procurement will no doubt be handing in their resignations at the revelations that FBOT will bring to bear. :)

#30 -- bit slow on the uptake.

Clarification and some detail added to help the discussion move along to get more people involved.

As you probably don't know -- perfection takes a lot of hard work and sometimes a few goes to get things right.

As for the 6 month timeline -- the whole job and not the statue renovations -- you need to know the basic like utilities.

What goes in must come out and the ins and outs should have some form of alignment. Consequently not a big job if the grafting is done now -- or even better at the design stage -- rather then when the diggers bursts a supposedly unknown pipe.

However given the design we are working too all this should be known and understood.

If we want good trees we need good roots and that takes planning -- so hopefully we are all aligned.

18 months is just a lazy contractor extracting the waste water.

18 months -- lets see some detail.

There we have it folks :)

FBOT & Co. Contractors on the George Square job - genius. The gift that keeps on giving...:)

I think he is suggesting a 6 month contract but alas this learned constable is too cunning to be understood.

Some meat on the bone please FBOT, the readers of UR still await your detailed program...

Sheep vibe is strong in that one ...

As long as the numbers come from a easily recognised piece of middle class welfare as in some consultancy / masterplan / strategy document / management plan then that is alright then.

Don't challenge / never question / don't review -- just accept what is on the paper and move on.

We are losing Glasgow's beating heart for 18 months for a low level makeover and that is OK or it is OK to far too many.

No wonder there are no pyramids in Glesga -- they are still in planning and the costs will go through the roof as we won't be allowed to use slave labour as was set out in the original SOW.

No contractor onboard.
18 month critical path.
Statues still in place.
Trees probably still in the seedbank.

What on earth have we actually done for the past 20 years?

The question is not how can it be done in 6 months.

The real question is why can it not be done in 6 months?

Avenue workstream comes first and George Square will have to wait?

George Square redevelopment -- it is not difficult.
Might be awkward but it is not difficult.
NatLand Public Sector does not appear to know the difference.

Euro norms would have a 10M deep dig and a multi storey underground car park installed in 18 months.

That is how far off the pace we are.

I thought FBOT was the guy with all the answers. Now it seems... only questions.
We're still waiting for your 6 month contract program...
:)

When does the horse tranquiliser boat come in?
I think there will be a long queue.

April 14 -- Walls go up / Who do we think we are Berlin?
May -- Statue removal / Why the wait? / A week's work if you have done the prep.
June -- Contractor good to go / We currently don't have a contractor / Potential issue on the near horizon.
Ongoing -- spoon feeding councillors tripe to mouth in their copious amounts of PR about the build.
The George Square development project is not huge -- only a city that can't rebuild its Art School in more than a decade would ever put out such nonsense.

Presumably the new design has easily accessible underground power points and water/ waste so that di sel generators etc aren't needed for events and activation via pop-up cafes, stalls etc?

Would hope they can come up with a management plan that doesn't involve all the ugly Heras fencing that we are used to seeing in the square..

If you actually think that this meek and mediocre contract couldn’t be done in circa six months, then you’re either not in the industry, on the contractor payroll, perhaps just not very smart or most likely of all suffering from Stockholm syndrome...

First step -- proposed 18 month build plan / where is it?
Challenging given they haven't appointed the main contractor.

Where does the 18 month figure come from?
Council hope / desire / finger in the air?
What are they doing this week?
What are they doing today?

What have they done so far -- how much prep have they done.
What unknowns are they still working to?
How long is the risk register?

Statue workload -- credible?
Utility map -- fully detailed / full picture / fully understood or still with "There be dragons" notices plastered all over it?
Have they learned anything from Sauchiehall Street?

Main point -- 18 month timeline is incredible.

The reason for 18 months is that everyone and everybody's granny knows that it'll take Scottish Power at least 6 months to find a stamp to reply to a request by the unfortunate contractor to even look at and check what's there if anything needs moved.

STILL awaiting FBOT's fast track 6 month project program bearing in mind that he is now also proposing a 3 storey sub-terranean car-park in addition to the public realm works. :)

Don't be shy, please share. I will give you a starter for ten.
1. Contractor mobilisation

I also want details of lead-in times, of supply chains , sub-contractors, colllateral warranties and human and mechanical resources. Oh and not forgetting details of the compressed sub-contract for the specialist statuary conservation.

I have given some of the officers and elected members at the council the heads-up on this, and they are waiting to cancel the established procurement route for FBOT & Co's fast-track arrangement. They were initally astonished but are now fully on board.

Please advise ASAP...

#24 Roddy, yes I get your point but to have waited 20 years for this and then they start just when we host a global sporting event is just bonkers! Just what we have come to expect from SNP/Green run GCC.

Never work with children or animals ...

Base point -- what has the council done in the past 12 months?

So long leads / extra long leads should be in hand?

Contractor -- build to print hopefully / just bring shovels.
Statues -- running late / leave the plinths blank.
They are nice to have not critical to the project.

@#42
I could sort of understand your position if the city had won the games under normal circumstances, but you clearly have not quite grasped that the city only offered to host the games less than a year ago. (Does the SNP/Green run GCC get any credit for both offering to host the games and for that offer to be accepted?)
The process and timeline for the square had already been established long prior to offering the City as an alternative to Victoria.

What should therefore have happened?

1. Turn down the offer of the games because the square redvelopment program was already in train
2. Suspend the program of the square already being implemented, this would have meant some kind of temporary / interim square works. Increased costs and liabilies everywhere. I suspect you would be among the first complaining about delays and cost overruns, extra consultants fees etc etc
3. Go ahead with the works as programmed
3. Some other combination which you sound like you have the answer to

Worth recalling perhaps that also, the previous admin had a good 7 year window (won the CWG bid in 2007) within which to redevelop the square prior to the 2014 games and nothing was forthcoming untill the temporary makover which was apalling and then in 2013 with the disastrous competition. Does that administration deserve the same implied disdain?

I've always said that whatever colour of admin deserves credit and criticism but credit and criticism based on facts. It's clear you seem blinded by whatever partisan leaning you have without recourse to the facts.


PS Officers in Neighbourhoods and Regen are still waiting for FBOT's tender program. Will we see one ? :)

PPS Though they are a wee bit concerned about your suggestion that lead-in times should be 'in hand' prior to the contract being let. It's almost as if you know nothing about the procurement process, but don't let that hold you back - We all know better!

PPPS The Conservation Management Plan for the square asserts that the statuary IS critical to the project but again, don't let the facts get in the way of pushing your fast-track deal - THIS CAN HAPPEN.

PS FBOT
I meant to ask which form of fast-track contract you favour? Given your disdain for contractors, then Design/ Build with a novated designer is out of the question -clearly. Perhaps a traditional contract where all the detail is worked out beforehand but contractor is not responsible for the design - so no input on buildability or works acitivities. What about NEC given the known unknowns under the surface ... no... too much contractor control for you again.
Sort of running out of alternatives here but I'm sure you be able to clarify....

Speak in indecipherable phrases.

Ask pointless rhetorical questions.

Throw in a flippant remark to conclude.

This is the FBOT way.

Stylists style -- no real world engagement.

Designers design -- with real world engagement.

Designers will have a track record / not their first rodeo / some experience in the field.
Public square remodelling -- very commodity / very utility focused.
Unobtanium use rationed hopefully.

Contractor engagement -- surely we have some feedback already.
Long leads / extra long leads -- Council should be on the ball with directed sourcing up and running.

18 month timeline -- culprits starting to come to the surface.
Council are clueless / Contractors given a free reign / VFM non existent.

Not good.

NEC angle ...

Hopefully the council have a well thumbed copy.
Hopefully the designers have a well thumbed copy.
Hopefully the contractors who have quoted have a well thumbed copy.

Known unknowns -- Donald Rumsfield come on down ...
Although given his career it will be probably come on up.

So what are they?
Secret tunnel to the Vatican via Parkhead?
Nuclear bunker?
Ludge Zero?
GCC Moneypit?
Pat Lally's lair?

FBOT …. Enough already.
If you can dig up the square as fast as you can dig a hole for yourself we’ll be laughing.

:)

Funniest thread in ages.

I like the vision. I think it needs more Portuguese or Italian style paving and some cosier formal spots with hedging. Everygreen trees would make it more welcoming.

This thread is a riot, with all the talk of rodeos and kailyards.

#6 - There’s more chance you’d get a Billy Connolly statue with big banana feet, than a John MacLean statue. Ask present generations of Glaswegians and I'll wager most will be unaware of Red Clydeside, or of the UK Government sending in tanks against its own people.

#22 - You’ve given yourself away there, I think it was Michael Foot who referred to the Daily Fail as "the Forgers' Gazette". As above, present generations of Glaswegians will be unaware of Michael Foot, or indeed of Socialism.

#33 - “What on earth have we actually done for the past 20 years?”
Allowed Glasgow Art School to burn down, twice?

#44 - On a serious note, a tenderer usually presents an outline programme with his/ her tender, and that should include an allowance for lead-in times. I’d be concerned if the tenderer’s programme ignored long lead items, especially if they’re on the critical path - as mobilising Scottish Water for George Square utilities diversions would be.

#52 -- Comments highlight what we are losing as time marches on / memories are blurred / myth takes over.

Tanks on George Square -- high quality revisionism is the order of the day from Herald letter writing types.
Armoured car more likely -- easier to move.
Tanks -- earlier Army recruitment campaign in the frame.
Long shot -- Whippet C which was more mobile.
Herald type revisionism -- some gaps in their story.

Forger's Gazette -- 1920's political dark arts.
Michael Foot not involved although he should have been.
His career was incredible -- Guilty Men to the loss of the Falklands.
He had a lot to call out -- Tory establishment failure on repeat.
Oldest squad member in English football as well.

20 year comment -- the focus is George Square but how right you are.

1980/90's it was the Shining Path.
Now it is the Critical Path -- middle age dotage is boring.
Project planning -- it might catch on but it is a tough gig when you are dealing with felt tip fairies / angels on pinhead types / masterplanners.